Brad Miller 0:00
Rhoberta It is a pleasure to have you with us on the pathway to promise who were are all about helping people overcome various adversities in their life, to achieve a life of peace, and prosperity and purpose. And you, of course, are about working with folks who have had their share of struggles and adversities particularly in their relationships with a I sense that the in your life that you’ve had some of your own

things to overcome in your life, what are some things you’ve had to overcome or submit versus in your life that you’ve had to deal with in order to be helpful to other people, there’s a deal with their relationship issues.

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 0:41
Oh, my whole lots of things, Brad, lots of things. I think that’s what puts us on a pathway to being interested in helping other people. Sometimes the focus of my work at the moment is helping those people who are in relationship with the relentlessly difficult people I call high jackals. So there’s a lot going on there. And that comes from my early life. Hi, jackals are people to hijack relationships for their own purposes while relentlessly scavenging them for power status and control. So those are the people who we put in the cluster B personality disorder category. And I work with their partners and their exes and their adult children. So that’s where I have had all kinds of nasty experience. I was raised by these difficult people, I was an only child I’ve experienced the isolation of that I therefore being raised by them went on to course attract one for a life partner then had children had to divorce one learn how to co parent one with one. And as things go when you’re with an relentlessly difficult person, or a high jackal, as I call them, Brad and I know you know this, that when you go out to get some help, what happens is the high jackal paints a picture of perfection in public, but at home, they’re creating a private place of pain. So when you go out and you try to say, here’s what’s happening to me at home as a young adult and and the high jackal has produced this public picture of perfection, the therapist or whomever you’re working with. And in my case, it was a counselor said, Oh, that’s a terrible thing to say about your mother. She’s wonderful. So it started there. And then, you know, I was actually going into medicine. And when I was on my way to I just start medical school, I found out I was pregnant unexpectedly, and I’m married and I could not see putting a child through the troubles and the horrible hours and the poverty of medical school. So I returned to the university and got a doctorate in psychology. Okay, very good. What sounds like is you turn them the term. High jackals there, there sounds like there’s some similarities. People with Porter line personality disorder, and things of that nature. And the youth people who believe that the world is in black and white terms, they can also hide part of their personality in private, or I mean, chokes 1% private to show another personality in public, because I should have others

Brad Miller 3:20
in terms of dealing with these folks that you’ve had in your own life. And now you’re being helpful to others. I would just like to ask you about a sense of

how dealing with people with a with a higher power is of pertinent aspect of these relationships, whether it be some sort of a spiritual development or meditation practices or anything along this line, how is this or is this a part of the relationship building that you work with?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 3:49
Oh, it certainly is, Brad. Because when I was three years old, and a sort of unwanted and only child, I found my calling, I went on, I said, I want to go to church. And my parents didn’t go to church. So where did that come from, but I did, I went off, they were happy to get rid of me. And I sustain that interest. So I have actually been the Minister of some large New Thought churches, spiritual centers. And so I have a very strong practice of meditation and what you know, loosely called prayer, or treatment, or talking to God, or listening to God, or whatever you wanted to say, a very, very integral part of my life. And I think when people share that their relationship work can be deepened, and when they don’t share it. And in fact, I just got off the phone or off the computer working with a couple who said that they wouldn’t get married initially, because one had a spiritual path, the other didn’t, the one with the path wouldn’t marry the other. So he had to either find a spiritual path or are not get buried, and he found a spiritual path. And that’s a conversation that has to be continued. So I wanted to find out why he did that, because it doesn’t seem to be helping them in their relationship. But I think people who share a spiritual Outlook or practice have much more equanimity to look at their lives and more willing to be self reflective, and to listen to another person with a little more openness

Brad Miller 5:29
seems like if one person’s on a path of a spiritual path as you sent one person is not there’d be a matter of incongruity and Tommy coming together into a relationship that may be a factor as well teach a part of your teaching is that some sort of a common spiritual path is a helpful piece to building the relationship?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 5:50
Well, I certainly think it is. Because if you have a spiritual path, then you have an openness to humans, you have a level of acceptance, hopefully, you have an open heart, you’re willing to be non judgmental, you’re, you know, there’s things that go with having a spiritual path, not with all religious path, but with a spiritual path that will certainly open you to other humans. And if you both have that, well, of course, you double the openness. And therefore there is more possibility for growing together for developing emotional intimacy, which is probably the largest complaint that’s really going on, when a couple comes is there’s no emotional intimacy, because we long to be no, and we long to be seen and acknowledged, and, and heard and appreciated and accepted for who we are. And that’s basic to emotional intimacy.

Brad Miller 6:52
So you find emotional intimacy is just one of the really huge issues that couples are dealing with, when it comes to resolving whatever the matters are, which are conflicts and their relationship.

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 7:05
Certainly, I mean, if I cannot count on my partner, to be there, to be interested in me, to protect me, not physically, but to protect me to say, I’ll stand up for you, I will be that person that you can share your vulnerabilities with me, and you’ll be safe, I will not go turning them into weapons and sending them out into the world or using them against you, you have to have an emotionally intimate relationship that allows for that,

and that’s a big, big piece to develop. And when people come to me, and they obviously don’t have emotional intimacy, they can be saying the most Oh, hurtful things to one another. And really, they’re speaking from their own pain, and so many cases, because they were longing for something, it was denied to them. And now they’re angry with you

Brad Miller 7:59
talk about this emotional intimacy or lack thereof, almost always, one way or another. The word and terminology of love is brought up in terms of our relationships. And that’s such a supercharged word, a powerful word and but in the context of what we’re talking about here, in terms of restoration of relationships, rebuilding them, how can love be truly expressed any any building way as a fuel for rebuilding relationships? And how also is this word the concept of love, sometimes use as a weapon to beat down the other person? Just share with me a little bit about your take on love?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 8:38
Yeah, well, you know, I think I’m going to say something that many people find controversy or Brad, but I’m going to say this love isn’t enough. It isn’t enough to keep a relationship healthy and whole, it needs a few housekeeping things. And I’m going to give you eight of them. You know, when I wrote Kaizen for couples, I said, Love is not enough, it must have these five relational gifts. I call them the relational gifts. The reason I call them that bread is because if you don’t have a gift, you can’t give it if it’s not in your, in your grasp, you do not have it to give. So you need these five things that I talked about Kaizen for couples to, to have worked on within yourself, that you are using them within yourself, that you’re in alignment within yourself, so that you have them to give to the relationship and where they are is honesty, safety, trust, respect and reliability. And if you have those things to give you will make a great contribution to the relationship and they will all enhance the idea that we actually have a what it feels like to experience love. Another thing that I think a relationship we’re always going to be unsatisfactory to it least one person when we’re not discussing hijack costs. Where there’s a non high jackal relationship there are three things that must occur there must be a quality reciprocity and mutuality. And if those things are not there, we’re still not going to add up to love. Because love is just not enough. You know, I’m you can really love somebody, but not like them at all right, you can love them because they’re human. And they, they take up space and draw breath and they have the right to, and you’d love that and you love all kinds of thing about them in a human way. But in order to be in relationship with them, there are other things that must be present for love to be felt like for some folks love sometimes is confused with passion in the sense of, you know, passion can be a temporary flame, it can be burned hot, but will essentially subject side and loved it. I believe that you’re talking about ways that we sustain and grow and nurture relationships and these other factors you’re talking about are involved here. So Love is not enough, especially when it seemed the context of that of that hot

Brad Miller 11:15
passion. It’s just a temporary thing

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 11:17
we like to throw around the term unconditional love. So let’s talk about that for a minute.

Unconditional Love, meaning I went to love you, no matter what you do, no matter what you say. No matter how badly you abuse me know, unconditional love is something I do from within me by choice. And I also keep myself safe through distance. And we I’ve heard people and you probably have to read heard people use the idea of, well, you’re supposed to believe in unconditional love as a weapon to hurt their partner where unconditional love is a decision I make as to who I am, and how I practice my spirituality, and I decide whether I’m doing it, well, you don’t

then you don’t weaponize it, and hit me over the head with it either. So I think it’s very, very important to understand that unconditional love is not something to expect something, it is something that I choose to give and live in alignment with.

Brad Miller 12:22
In a way, that’s part of the conditions that you have to give yourself permission in order to be in this type of give and take in a relationship where you have to respect one another’s and you want to be under the difficulties and you’re going to deal with it in this kind of contact. Perhaps

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 12:40
you know, I mean, some people don’t deal with it. If we go back to the high jackal thing, you know, my mother was was a borderline and I had some narcissistic tendencies. And I loved my mother, because she was my mother. I did not like her. I didn’t approve of her. And I didn’t appreciate her. So you know, I could be unconditionally loving by loving my mother, and what she stood for, and understanding her and being compassionate about all the triple trouble. She went through sharing electroshock therapy, horrible things happen to her. She, she got into this behavior pattern and way of looking at the world. And she happened to do it when I was two years old. And that’s just unfortunate for me. And or, but it didn’t mean that I couldn’t have unconditional love for her and her struggle. I did not want it to be the kind of love which says, I’m going to live with you every day. No matter how badly you hurt me.

Brad Miller 13:34
That’s a past any way of framing the relationship here. And understanding that you don’t have to put up with the hurts but you still have to love for persons. But you don’t have to put up with

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 13:48
all that pain. No. And this is a good idea not to,

if somebody is is yes, yes, let’s be healthy about this not long suffering under the guise of air quotes, spirituality, you know, no, let’s be real. That’s what spirituality is, is reality. You know, in my opinion, of course, of course,

Brad Miller 14:12
when this process you’ve, you’ve, you’ve mentioned all these various concepts about how sustaining relationships are involved, much more than love and the various factors that you’ve mentioned. But you’ve also used the term Kaizen in your book, Kaizen for couples, and I’ve heard the US guys in the term Japanese term, Kaizen us quite a bit, but often in terms of old business or corporate culture, this type of thing having to do with

being efficient toward doing things in a constant state of improvement. say a little bit about what why you How would you apply this term Kaizen to couples and relationship building?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 14:55
Sure, of course, the term Kaizen comes from Joe W. Edwards, Deming long time ago working with Toyota, but what it actually means is small incremental improvement, which is why I chose it for the title of my book, we can’t make big sweeping changes, but we can make small incremental improvements in the way that we relate to ourselves and each other, and, therefore change our relationship. And it’s important to do that, you know, it’s just one day at a time, it’s one change at a time, it’s one step at a time, it’s one shift at a time, and then maybe I’m going to do what I call the self improvement Samba, you’re going to do two steps forward and one step back for a while, and you’re going to learn a few things. So, that’s what Kaizen is, is that you just make small incremental positive improvements.

Brad Miller 15:49
Let’s talk a little more specifically about those small incremental positive improvements. What are some practical exercises or things that couples can do some different plans, or habits or incremental improvements that baby you’ve experienced, or ever given as assignments to couples? Or perhaps, however, you approach things, what are some people some things that people can actually do Wait, got

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 16:11
me on a good day proud because I just left a couple and I just gave them some Well, in this case, with this couple. That was our first session together, and I work in packages of eight verse 1516 sessions. So we’re on the long road together, which is great, because they’re really committed and involved and willing to work. But I asked them this question, How long has it been since you’ve touched each other? Not in a sexual way? just touched two months. Now, of course, I’m just learning their history and

Brad Miller 16:44
learn just to be clear, are you talking about physical touch, or some of the emotional feeling of physical, you know, holding hands or such things such as that he right, yeah,

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 16:53
holding hands, walking behind another’s chair and just touching their shoulder reach out and comforting them by touching their arm doing something that demonstrates their cherished in some way, you know, just by touch? And their answer was two months

Brad Miller 17:11
just commenting your experience with people go long periods of time without these simple acts of touching?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 17:18
Certainly, yes, because they’re withholding from fear of being hurt. So they withdraw and they withhold. And you know, if you’re afraid of being hurt, or you’ve had a pattern in your life, particularly in the first five years of your life of being hurt, then you’re going to do these things you’re going to revert to these when when you feel danger, you’re going to do what you did when you were little, you’re going to withdraw you’re going to pull back you’re going to get afraid and and sometimes you can’t separate out the AVM not safe going on a wild ride with this person. But I’m still safe to sit across the table from them. Sometimes we can’t determine those things. And with this couple when I heard that they hadn’t touched each other in any way for two months, this a couple who could not look at each other today. And I found that they they had not touched each other for two months. You know, where does that lack of safety lie? So what I asked them to do was just now consider,

could you possibly understand that communication occurs through touch? Could you understand that if you put your palms together when you’re holding hands, and you just close your eyes? And you didn’t think could you just feel the connection? Could you allow that connection?

And as they did it the first time in a two hour session? they smiled Brad awesome. Yes, because they were missing that so desperately, that sense of physical connection. It’s not about sex, sex is wonderful. It’s a great thing to have in your relationship. But great expression, a very private expression for a couple to have. But let’s not forget that we demonstrate that I’m glad you’re here by physically touching you.

Brad Miller 19:16
And that goes to other expressions of that I’m thinking of just spending time with one another with you with a with the TV off and with, you know, the computer often just in conversation that somebody for couples to not do?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 19:29
Absolutely. You know, I had a couple ones who said that they desperately wanted to repair their relationship. They had a very successful business together and for small children. So I said, All right, here’s what I’d like you to do. Before you come back next week, I’d like you to spend 45 minutes before you come back, having a conversation about what it is you’d most like to receive from your partner, just the conversation, no commitment to doing it, nothing, just being able to share that information with each other. They came back the next week. I said, All right. What is it that you wanted to receive from your partners? What came of your 45 minutes of conversation, they looked at me and they said, Oh, we were too busy.

Brad Miller 20:17
I tell you something right there, doesn’t it? That’s a huge, huge tail right there. Because, you know, so often, in my experience, in the counseling that I do with couples, and so on, you just hear this often, so often have something along the lines of, you know, she doesn’t listen to me, he doesn’t hear me, I’m not appreciated there. You know, they don’t accept me for who I am. These type of things. So this is part of what the advice you’re giving is to take, you know, carve out some time and really listen, what else can you say to these folks who say these type of things to you? I’m not being heard. They don’t listen?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 20:48
Well, my first thing is going to be something that they don’t want to hear. And how are you listening? And how are you hearing your partner? Because you know, what their relational gifts? As I said, you can’t give a gift you don’t have. So I, you’re complaining that this person doesn’t give this to you? Well, did you go first? Did you give it to them? We always have to start with our own self reflection. What am I doing? Am I self aware? Do I recognize that I’m asking for something I’m unwilling to get? No, as you mentioned earlier, Brad have written lots of books. One of the books was a program a book for helping children understand self esteem and self concept. I wanted to put a poster in there, and it was going into schools in British Columbia, and I couldn’t put something that had a religious connotation or anything that, you know, would not be appropriate at that time for the schools. And so I thought long and hard about what am I going to put that supposed to that would remind children of this concept. And I finally made this beautiful poster that said, Give only what you’re willing to receive. And How was that received? Very, very well, very well, because if we stop and look at our complaints about our partner and say, okay, am I giving what I want to receive who we can make a big change right there? Because maybe we’re not know maybe we are, maybe we’re knocking ourselves out to give them all that and they can’t receive it or won’t receive it or something else is going on? But it is a moment of clarity to say to yourself, Am I giving to my partner what I want to receive from them and do your own work first,

Brad Miller 22:30
in a way, just a simple restatement of the golden rule, maybe it’ll kind of reverse order, you know, give unto others as you’d have to give to you start with give to your partner, what you would have them give back to you so simple but effective, isn’t it?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 22:44
Yes, very,

Brad Miller 22:45
Roberta. How one of the things that I’m interested is, this is kind of a technical thing in a way, but you’re doing a lot of your

counseling and relationship training with folks online. I understand. And how has the nature of the internet been an impact on people’s relationships? So is it easier? Is it harder? What is the impact of this technological world we live in right now?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 23:16
Well, of course, it’s made information generic to everybody, which is wonderful on the upside. And on the downside, it’s media information available to every party. So you know, I was saying to somebody just this morning on Facebook, they were saying, why did you make this term? High jackals? Why don’t you just call them cluster B personality just Well, nobody could have said that to me, unless they sent me a letter 20 years ago, right? Or the conversation was right there. And I said, well, because too many people are going to the Google goddess. And they’re putting him you know how their partner behaves. And the Google Goddess is an index folks, it is not a credential professional. All the Google God is comes back and gives a psychological diagnosis. So the Google goddess comes back and says, your partner, your mother, your coworker, your boss is probably a narcissist, then you go, Oh, that’s what’s wrong with them. And you just took yourself out of the equation. And it’s not an accurate diagnosis. It may or may not be the case, but the the treats and patterns and cycles of how all those people, border lines, anti socials, histrionics and nurses behave, they all drink from the same pool of traits. And that’s why I call them high jackals because we need to know those trees and how we are condoning in enabling them in the relationship. And what we need to do is also inherent in understanding that they have high jackal traits, patterns and cycles. So the Internet has made it so that well, you know, blue, some big sweeping things can happen. Like, Oh, now I know I’m in relationship with a narcissist, well, now everything is their fault. And, you know, off you go,

Brad Miller 25:06
there’s almost no way you can have

the gift of discernment that comes from an interaction in a relationship through just a one way, you know, information input from from Google, you have to have the discernment of the relationship, the nuances that take place, and that’s where therapy comes in. And people actually having conversation comes into play. So that’s kind of the downside that from my perspective, you can’t do everything on screen. You have to some things together

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 25:40
more things together than on screen, please. Absolutely. Yeah.

And then while we’re on that Brad, let’s just say a little worried about texting.

Brad Miller 25:49
Hmm.

I have three kids. So texting is a part of my life, my friend, right?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 25:57
Yeah, well, I have three kids and grandkids to boot. But you know, let’s talk about texting for a moment. Because texting is a place with no context. Hmm. So when you see something that person does not know whether you’re kidding, you’re serious, your tongue in cheek, you’re sarcastic. They only see the words so they read the words according to the meaning they give it and they respond to that. So you’re taking a huge risk if you share anything beyond what I call congratulations. confirmations and affirmations. You know, or information and just the facts, ma’am, and a text and you know, I had somebody the other day Tell me Brad that they were broken up with by text. Oh,

Brad Miller 26:45
I ever doubt as well in that amazing

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 26:49
it is so telling about our inability now because we’re a screen people

or inability to look so in the eye and tell them honestly what you think and feel a need and want and it’s also so easy to press that send button on the text or on the Twitter post and so

Brad Miller 27:10
on. It’s so easy because you don’t have to input your true emotion there or, or it’s our George shade or at shroud shrouds your true emotion. And it just simply is not made up for by some silly emoji. Yo thing, that’s all

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 27:25
No, no, it certainly isn’t. So just a caution. You know, don’t don’t use it for anything but information or an I love you as an affirmation. You know, just don’t people are, are to look in the eye and talk with, you know, we have zoom. Now, you know, you sign your phone, use duo use FaceTime, look at the person when you’re going to talk to them. It’s much more effective to see the see the person as well.

Brad Miller 27:57
Roberta, if you have one piece of advice Did you give a couple of Do you find that is a common thing that you are giving these days, or perhaps just a very important thing that is arising? What are you sharing with couples these days is a deal with conflict.

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 28:10
Well, when there’s conflict, don’t be afraid. See, we’re mostly raised to be a bit afraid of conflict. Conflict is just you. And I don’t agree right now. But if you can say, all right, but let’s have a conversation about it. Let’s have a conversation where we are vitally interested in the other person’s point of view. And that we remember the other person’s background like, again, I’ll just do it from this point of view, the couple that I just left brand new to me. But one thing I learned was, the man had been at the seven, eight years younger than his, his next closest sibling. So basically was an only child. And as he spoke to me about his first five years of life, which I always ask people first, he cried. When he said these words,

I realized I was really, really alone.

Now, if your partner says to you, I was five years old, and I had to play with my back in a dirt pile, because there was no one to play with. And I wasn’t, I didn’t have family and friends around, I didn’t have anything. And then you wonder why your partner goes out and works in their shed.

And when I said to him, what would it be like if your wife came out to your shop, and she brought you a cold drink? And she said, I just wanted to see what you were up to. And spend a moment with you more tears

Brad Miller 29:48
simple, act so powerful. Let’s remember

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 29:50
that everything that we do

is coming from our consciousness. What do I want Express? Why do I want the other person to experience? What do I need to express what do I need to experience and then have great conversations where you are safe, and I teach a technique for this where you are safe, and I’m sure you do to bread to where you are safe to experience and express what you think, feel need and want, you can be heard. And it can be something that each of you remember and go forward being more emotionally intimate than when your conversation began

Brad Miller 30:34
such a powerful technique because if you can somehow frame it in such a way where a person is able to feel safe and not feel judged. And that is such a freeing time and I know I felt that myself and some relationships that I’ve been in been challenged on and and I see that in what you’re sharing here. It’s incredible reporting. I’d like to ask almost all my guests here we talked about in our podcast that promise life of peace and prosperity and purposes, a promised aspect of life for for folks and I just like to ask you about what for you entails a life of peace in a relationship?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 31:17
Oh, that’s such a big question. Let me answer just one little piece of it. No pun intended piece I think is summed up by St. Antwan, super a in a relationship he said, Love doesn’t consist only engaging at each other, but in looking out at the world together.

And when you have the partnership of being able to look out at the world together and talk about what you’re seeing, you’re in much better shape than when you can’t,

Brad Miller 31:49
Rhoberta. How would you define prosperity in a relationship?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 31:55
Ah, love that. Yes, I I wrote a book called prosperity on purpose. So yes, prosperity is recognized in the abundance of love you have to give and that you’re willing to receive where you don’t be in a relationship from a point of view of scarcity, when you you know, maybe you’ll recognize there are some scarcities in little places within each of you, but that you will fill those places up with abundance in each other and with yourself. And so we never want to be coming to a relationship from a place of scarcity and fear. But coming into a relationship with an open heart and a willingness to learn and to share ourselves. There is a full life there is an abundant life, that’s a promise to all of us, if we just see it that way, instead of see it as a scarcity. Exactly. And it’s there. It’s there

Brad Miller 32:49
because claim it, Roberta. Roberta, what is your purpose in your life right now? And how important is it for a couple, for instance, to define a purpose for their relationship?

Dr. Rhoberta Shaler 33:03
Two very different questions. My purpose in life right now is to help people recognize and stop tolerating verbal and emotional abuse.

That’s my purpose in life. And how important is it for couples to define a purpose in their relationship? I think the purpose of the relationship is to be supportive, to understand to have an equal reciprocal mutual relationship where you are equals where you will do things for one another, to be supportive, and you will not keep a scorecard and where you will have mutuality that you want for your partner what they want themselves if that means joining in some kind of shared passion or purpose grade, but the relationship itself has a shared passion and purpose, which is to have the greatest and highest experience and expression of each of the partners and the children. They produce a great expression of their one to another into their children into their life together. That’s a great place for us to begin to close our conversation. And just would like to ask you, Roberta, what are you working on now? What can we expect from you what and what are some ways folks could be in contact with you if they want to learn more about what you’re about and what you have to offer?

Sure. Well, you can always find me at my website for relationship help calm that’s fo our relationship at LP dot com. Lots of things there for you a YouTube channel by the same name for relationship help. I have two podcasts every week. Emotional savvy, the relationship help show and save your sanity help for handling high jackals. I also have a TV show on the binge TV network called emotional savvy. So there are lots of ways to interact with me. I have clients all over the world through the wonderful magic of the internet, video conferencing. I’m always happy to help people and you can come to work with me easily by going to for relationship help calm lots

Brad Miller 35:10
of ways to get connected with you. And we’ll put all those connections in our show notes. It’s been an incredible pleasure today to have on the pathway to promise