Empowering Students to Succeed Through Education, Inspiration and Mobilization with Michael T Brown the author of “A Beautiful Challenge”

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Michael T. Brown is Dr. Brad Miller’s guest on Episode 215 of “The Beyond Adversity Podcast.”

He is a professional counselor, a leader, and a speaker who has the goal to support, motivate, educate, and mobilize people. He has worked for over 17 years as a school counselor on all levels: elementary, middle school, high school, and college.

He has a belief that everyone will go through challenges. No matter who you are, no matter where you are. 

When Michael was thinking of taking his career to the next level, he thought about leaving his job as a school counselor to transfer to private practice. He was thankful for the experience and saw the role of a counselor in the education sector as a blessing. However, he has this desire for more, to go through the next level. 

Episode 215 of The Beyond Adversity Podcast is for those who are going through challenges in life that need guidance and motivation to push through. The episode aims to inspire and help people overcome obstacles in life for the better. 

His dedication to his life mission motivated him to leap into the next step in life. Despite the challenges and changes in life, as long as you are dedicated to your goal, you’ll be able to overcome them. Furthermore, Michael believes that taking care of your mental, physical, and spiritual health can help you expand your mind and learning capacity, etc.

In this episode, Michael discusses all about his career and teachings as a counselor and his journey in life in order to reach where he is today. He will share his story, insights, and advice that will surely help you in your life.

“The Beyond Adversity Podcast with Dr. Brad Miller is published weekly with the mission of helping people “Grow Through What They Go Through” as they navigate adversity and discover their promised life of peace, prosperity, and purpose. 

http://brownsleadership.com/

Speaker Hub: https://speakerhub.com/speaker/michael-t-brown?b=s  

Twitter: https://twitter.com/mtbrown98 

Transcript
Dr. Brad Miller:

I'm glad to have with us today, Michael T. Brown.

Dr. Brad Miller:

He works in the area of education, to help people to

Dr. Brad Miller:

navigate situations they have found themselves in

Dr. Brad Miller:

and helps people to be empowered and inspired

Dr. Brad Miller:

and mobilized. He teaches through his website

Dr. Brad Miller:

brownsleadership.com. He has some great things to

Dr. Brad Miller:

share with us today about he's had some success and

Dr. Brad Miller:

some challenges in his life. But Michael, welcome to Beyond Adversity.

Michael T. Brown:

Thank you, sir, I appreciate the invite, I look forward to our conversation.

Dr. Brad Miller:

It is awesome to have you with us, you have some great

Dr. Brad Miller:

insights and you've worked with some challenging situations

Dr. Brad Miller:

in your career. But other fields, you faced a few challenging

Dr. Brad Miller:

situations of your own, you may have had some adverse life

Dr. Brad Miller:

events or something that you've had some challenges with,

Dr. Brad Miller:

can you just share with us a little bit of something that you have

Dr. Brad Miller:

had to face in your life? That kind of led to what you're doing

Dr. Brad Miller:

now? Because I got a feeling what you're doing now in serving

Dr. Brad Miller:

others, was at least partly influenced by some experience you had in your life?

Michael T. Brown:

Great question, Dr. Brad, I appreciate that. I would, when I

Michael T. Brown:

think about my life story, I look at it really as a journey, journey

Michael T. Brown:

to helping others. And when I think about my role as a therapist,

Michael T. Brown:

as a challenger, as an educator, unless you're talking to somebody

Michael T. Brown:

about this the other day, I think one of the reasons I'm in this

Michael T. Brown:

profession, is obviously to help and serve others. But it's really to

Michael T. Brown:

help me focus on me to be the best version of myself that I can be

Michael T. Brown:

every day, and you know, life's challenges are going to hit all of us.

Michael T. Brown:

No matter what street we live on, right? Those challenges are coming.

Michael T. Brown:

And so whether it's been, you know, my personal challenges of

Michael T. Brown:

navigating a career in education and counseling over 20 years, no,

Michael T. Brown:

I'm gonna imagine your background as a pastor, I'm sure you can

Michael T. Brown:

probably relate to that, right? Where there may have been moments

Michael T. Brown:

where you had to minister but you needed to be ministered to?

Dr. Brad Miller:

Absolutely, yes, I've had moments where I've had my moments of

Dr. Brad Miller:

depression and other things that I've had to deal with and have

Dr. Brad Miller:

sought help in those areas. And so it sounds like has been a part

Dr. Brad Miller:

of your journey as well.

Michael T. Brown:

Absolutely. And, you know, but it never ceases to amaze me, you know,

Michael T. Brown:

what can happen when we're honest about our challenge, willing to be

Michael T. Brown:

transparent. And when we commit to personal growth, and oftentimes

Michael T. Brown:

that personal growth, you know, needs to come with a process or

Michael T. Brown:

with some help some assistance. And for some people is maybe

Michael T. Brown:

through therapy for other it's through, you know, spiritual major,

Michael T. Brown:

whatever it is that they see. But I think it's important that all of us,

Michael T. Brown:

you know, identify the areas that you strengthen, they'd be

Michael T. Brown:

willing to put to work.

Dr. Brad Miller:

Well, my goal is one of those areas, what can you tell us a story

Dr. Brad Miller:

about maybe one particular experience or a situation that you

Dr. Brad Miller:

had to face, that was a particular challenge for you that you had to deal with?

Michael T. Brown:

Yeah, personally, I would say, in the past couple of years, the

Michael T. Brown:

decision to leave being a full time school counselor, and moving

Michael T. Brown:

out to private practice. For years, and in my role as a school

Michael T. Brown:

counselor, which I, you know, thoroughly enjoyed, and was a

Michael T. Brown:

blessing to me, and I believe that I was able to be a blessing to

Michael T. Brown:

others, I felt a need for more a desire for more, and it was there

Michael T. Brown:

moments where, you know, I saw myself, you know, leaving the

Michael T. Brown:

role I was in, but not quite sure how to navigate what the next level

Michael T. Brown:

looked like, for me, and I think a lot of people can relate to that when

Michael T. Brown:

I talk to people about, you know, their careers, you know, they, we can

Michael T. Brown:

be grateful for where we are and appreciative for where we are you

Michael T. Brown:

feel led to more. And I believe, you know, my faith informs me that,

Michael T. Brown:

you know, I think we can be ambitious on one side, right to have

Michael T. Brown:

drive and want more and have to have desire to achieve more

Michael T. Brown:

and do more. But on the same on the on the flip side, we need to

Michael T. Brown:

also be thankful for where we are. And I think that's a good recipe

Michael T. Brown:

to help navigate getting to the next level that helped me personally,

Michael T. Brown:

to keep my antennas open for what it looked like, for me the next

Michael T. Brown:

level, professionally, but at the same time to be thankful for where

Michael T. Brown:

I was because all the things that led me up to making a decision to

Michael T. Brown:

make that leap into full time private practice. My career was

Michael T. Brown:

preparation, in many ways, it was a bit of a graduation and

Michael T. Brown:

navigating that, you know, had it's had its ups and downs. It's a

Michael T. Brown:

real challenge. But at a certain point, you know, as I was building

Michael T. Brown:

towards it, there comes a certain point where we need to make a

Michael T. Brown:

leap to step out on faith and that and I would say that was a

Michael T. Brown:

challenging time for me but but fortunately, we were able to

Michael T. Brown:

navigate it and and see some real success on those.

Dr. Brad Miller:

What do you think were some of the action points for you that

Dr. Brad Miller:

you just said, "Okay, this is what I really need to do." You indicated

Dr. Brad Miller:

in our conversation about being kind of aspirational, wanting more

Dr. Brad Miller:

for yourself being thankful for what you've had, and yet there had

Dr. Brad Miller:

to be some point, the tipping point or the inflection point where

Dr. Brad Miller:

you said,"Okay, this is the actions I need to take, or go to the next

Dr. Brad Miller:

step for me." Can you think about maybe what one or two of those

Dr. Brad Miller:

actions were for you?

Michael T. Brown:

For me, it was being involved in, you know, staying committed to the

Michael T. Brown:

overall mission. And so with So, which is to continue to empower

Michael T. Brown:

individuals? Right. So if I stayed married to the mission, that was

Michael T. Brown:

a reminder, for me, that was an action point, to say, you know,

Michael T. Brown:

career paths may may alter and shift seasons of life may change,

Michael T. Brown:

but what are my anchors, so my anchor, my personal anchors is

Michael T. Brown:

my faith, right? You know, so staying committed to my daily

Michael T. Brown:

disciplines, re reinvesting into my, my spiritual walk, I call them

Michael T. Brown:

the big three, you know, our mental health, our physical health

Michael T. Brown:

and our spiritual health. So those are some really good action

Michael T. Brown:

points, I think. And that helped me to stay, to expand my

Michael T. Brown:

mind, my learning capacity, the reading, and you know, other

Michael T. Brown:

things that help our mentality mental health can help, therapy

Michael T. Brown:

can help, you know, physical health, taking care of our physical

Michael T. Brown:

bodies, you know, we're getting good rest working out, and our

Michael T. Brown:

spiritual health, that part of ourselves that we can't see. Now, for

Michael T. Brown:

many that may take on more religious or spiritual faith. But for

Michael T. Brown:

others, it can be the intangibles, our creativity, our imagination,

Michael T. Brown:

our intuition. So there were moments during that season where I

Michael T. Brown:

had to recommit to those things, to continue to invest in myself.

Michael T. Brown:

And as I did that, I was building as I went, some people may

Michael T. Brown:

be sitting on their job, and they have an epiphany, I need to

Michael T. Brown:

leave and go start a, a cookie company or whatever, right?

Michael T. Brown:

That wasn't my path. My path was, keep doing what you're

Michael T. Brown:

doing, and build as you go. And as you build, it can kind of is

Michael T. Brown:

to kind of grow and take

Dr. Brad Miller:

all of what you said about being married to the mission, the

Dr. Brad Miller:

mission doesn't always have to take the same exact form.

Dr. Brad Miller:

You mentioned, you are a counselor, I was so in a school

Dr. Brad Miller:

setting, like at a public

Michael T. Brown:

School counciler, I worked on all three levels over my 17 years

Dr. Brad Miller:

Elementary, middle school, high school, or college.

Michael T. Brown:

I worked at all.

Dr. Brad Miller:

Yeah

Michael T. Brown:

and spent some time.

Dr. Brad Miller:

There you go. So you worked with students in that type of

Dr. Brad Miller:

environment. And that's admirable in every way. And yet, you

Dr. Brad Miller:

know, you're still married to the mission, still doing what you're

Dr. Brad Miller:

doing. It just did. Now you're in private practice and your

Dr. Brad Miller:

consultant, and so on to help people on kind of a grander scale

Dr. Brad Miller:

or a more ambitious scale, perhaps, or aspirational, I would say.

Dr. Brad Miller:

And yet, you've mentioned something I think is so important

Dr. Brad Miller:

here, Michael, about how a part of this whole process for you

Dr. Brad Miller:

is you're married to your mission, but a part of your mission is

Dr. Brad Miller:

you're connected to a higher power, your spiritual walk. And so

Dr. Brad Miller:

let's go there for a second. How do you think and especially as

Dr. Brad Miller:

we think and reflecting for other folks who may be folks in UB

Dr. Brad Miller:

counselor may be listening to our voices here today? About what

Dr. Brad Miller:

is the role? What is the place of developing our spiritual walk or

Dr. Brad Miller:

spiritual connectedness, I like to say, in terms of your own

Dr. Brad Miller:

personal development, and then how can you that empowers

Dr. Brad Miller:

you to be empowering to other people? Tell us about that.

Michael T. Brown:

Yeah, really good question. I think, for people of faith, that,

Michael T. Brown:

you know, it's so important that we be a part of something bigger than ourselves.

Michael T. Brown:

For some individuals that bigger than themselves as a higher

Michael T. Brown:

power. For others, they may connect more through nature. For

Michael T. Brown:

others, they may connect more through, you know, connecting

Michael T. Brown:

with other human beings more of a moral focus, right? So when

Michael T. Brown:

I'm working with individuals, and I talk about mind, body and

Michael T. Brown:

spirit, the spiritual part of it, it's like we have a spirit the

Michael T. Brown:

question is whether or not we're going to invest in right.

Michael T. Brown:

You know, we I believe that we're trying beings, right mind,

Michael T. Brown:

body and spirit. So what are

Dr. Brad Miller:

we doing that's a choice you can choose to be developed

Dr. Brad Miller:

that or to let it grow to lay fallow?

Michael T. Brown:

That's right. And even if it's even if it's not a religious reference,

Michael T. Brown:

and for some people want to, they still think has an innate

Michael T. Brown:

desire in us right? To want to be a part of something bigger

Michael T. Brown:

than ourselves. Right, that it's not just about me in mind,

Michael T. Brown:

but how can I serve others? So I believe we recruit so for

Michael T. Brown:

me personally, I believe there's a creator who has created

Michael T. Brown:

us to be creative All right. So if the Creator has created us

Michael T. Brown:

to be creative, how can I create without being connected to

Michael T. Brown:

that source? So it's a constant reminder, right? To realize,

Michael T. Brown:

again, back to Mary to the mission, what is what is the mission,

Michael T. Brown:

if our mission is to just serve ourselves, then you know, that's

Michael T. Brown:

short lived, but when we invest in others, and that's part of

Michael T. Brown:

the mission is to inspire the next generation to help individuals

Michael T. Brown:

and meet them where they are, to live their best life.

Dr. Brad Miller:

That's back to but your Have you the Creator, and you were the

Dr. Brad Miller:

created, and then you created the new craft creation. But none of

Dr. Brad Miller:

it really happens without connection, you got to be connected. If

Dr. Brad Miller:

you're disconnected to the higher power, then you really do not

Dr. Brad Miller:

have a resource, you do not have a source of energy and you on

Dr. Brad Miller:

your of your own accord, you will lose energy you'll you'll burn out

Dr. Brad Miller:

and as many people do,

Michael T. Brown:

and some people have burnout, let's face it. Some folks are burnout

Michael T. Brown:

on the religious setting. And the complications that come with that.

Michael T. Brown:

Right, you hear a lot of times the question is, you know, Are you a

Michael T. Brown:

person? On my assessment that I, when I interviewed when I assess

Michael T. Brown:

folks in counseling? I asked them a question, as a part of the

Michael T. Brown:

assessment. And the question is this, "Is spirituality or faith a

Michael T. Brown:

part of your life? And if so, how?" And it's interesting that the

Michael T. Brown:

responses I get back from people, a lot of people, you know,

Michael T. Brown:

will say, Well, you know, not particularly, I don't prescribe to a

Michael T. Brown:

particular faith walk or religion, but I see myself as spiritual,

Michael T. Brown:

right. And I want to, I want to include everybody here, right?

Michael T. Brown:

Because I want to be respectful, everybody is not necessarily

Michael T. Brown:

going to fall into a religious perspective or their faith, their faith

Michael T. Brown:

may be in their fellow human being, their faith may be in their

Michael T. Brown:

own work, so their own morality, so I'm not sitting in judgment

Michael T. Brown:

of that, right, we may have our own personal walk. But so for

Michael T. Brown:

those who might not be able to religious perspective, they

Michael T. Brown:

may they still think there's a desire to want to be bigger, it's

Michael T. Brown:

big to be a part of something bigger than themselves. And for

Michael T. Brown:

some, they'll connect through humanity, they want to serve

Michael T. Brown:

humanity. So whatever it is, right, this is a note, from my

Michael T. Brown:

perspective, a no judgment zone. But if there is a spiritual

Michael T. Brown:

part of ourselves, and I believe there is that we find what

Michael T. Brown:

that is invest in. So that we can be so we can show up for

Michael T. Brown:

ourselves. And for those connected to,

Dr. Brad Miller:

I want to go with you on the investment piece in just a second

Dr. Brad Miller:

here. But I just wanted to kind of, clarify with you that the situation

Dr. Brad Miller:

is that for many people, they equate spirituality with religion or

Dr. Brad Miller:

something like this, or ritual or process or attending church or

Dr. Brad Miller:

synagogue, or mosque or whatever it would be, or something

Dr. Brad Miller:

connected with their, their parents or some heritage or something

Dr. Brad Miller:

like that, where true spirituality, what we're talking about here

Dr. Brad Miller:

has to be a very personal, intimate thing in there in and having

Dr. Brad Miller:

rope purpose. And having been, you know, a leader had been

Dr. Brad Miller:

empowered has to do with that. And I think that's where you're

Dr. Brad Miller:

going here with us. And we have to be Jinora be your best

Dr. Brad Miller:

form of ourselves, we have to invest in this area. So I'm a

Dr. Brad Miller:

real big believer in, people need to try to identify or come

Dr. Brad Miller:

to terms with whatever they has them stuck in, I'm sure if

Dr. Brad Miller:

you especially if you've worked with students, you have

Dr. Brad Miller:

some who are motivated and go getters and others who

Dr. Brad Miller:

are stuck. And I'm sure the people you've worked with

Dr. Brad Miller:

now or that way as well. But you got to kind of get off

Dr. Brad Miller:

the Schneid and take action. And you mentioned that

Dr. Brad Miller:

and you got to connect with something greater than self.

Dr. Brad Miller:

You know, that's why a lot of people get involved with

Dr. Brad Miller:

groups and are not it's not necessarily healthy, whether

Dr. Brad Miller:

they be, you know, political or whether they be cultish or

Dr. Brad Miller:

any number of things, or

Michael T. Brown:

criminal, whatever, right?

Dr. Brad Miller:

criminal or just gangs or just a group that drinks their drinks.

Michael T. Brown:

Community

Dr. Brad Miller:

table that they are looking for community looking for something

Dr. Brad Miller:

bigger than itself, and people crave that they need that. And so

Dr. Brad Miller:

but the idea here, what we're talking about here is finding some

Dr. Brad Miller:

healthy ways that you're and then so and that, to me, that has

Dr. Brad Miller:

to go a little bit to the cognitive piece, how you make the

Dr. Brad Miller:

emotional, you know, all the emotional and all the painful

Dr. Brad Miller:

pieces that we've talked about here now kind of reacting to

Dr. Brad Miller:

that, then how do we do something about it that's constructive

Dr. Brad Miller:

by the cognitive piece. So tell them a little bit about about any

Dr. Brad Miller:

process that you have in your teaching, or about disciplines,

Dr. Brad Miller:

habits, ways of doing stuff, practices, that either you do or you

Dr. Brad Miller:

teach or you advocate and help people then to take all this

Dr. Brad Miller:

the emotional stuff, we've been talking about spiritual stuff,

Dr. Brad Miller:

and getting into an apical piece that we can apply to our lives.

Michael T. Brown:

Now. Thanks for that question. I would say two, two pillars really

Michael T. Brown:

stand out for me in the therapy world and one being Cognitive

Michael T. Brown:

Behavioral Therapy. In many ways, I'd say it's a best practice

Michael T. Brown:

when it comes to the counseling world. And I believe that

Michael T. Brown:

because it's just so effective, you know, cognition, how we

Michael T. Brown:

think really mattered. Our thoughts impact our emotions,

Michael T. Brown:

our emotions impact our behavior. So what we do, and

Michael T. Brown:

therapy from the CBT standpoint is dealing all three areas,

Michael T. Brown:

let's improve our thought, like, "Am I willing to change or

Michael T. Brown:

challenge my thinking?" Only the ones that need to be changed,

Michael T. Brown:

obviously, right? So hopefully, I'll feel better and behave better.

Michael T. Brown:

So what do we do with that emotional part of ourselves?

Michael T. Brown:

Because let's face it, right, that's the blocker. A lot of times,

Michael T. Brown:

oftentimes, we want to do the right thing, but our emotions,

Michael T. Brown:

or trauma, or difficulty or pain, is stunting our growth. So

Michael T. Brown:

through therapy, and through education, we learn to better

Michael T. Brown:

manage our first of all, be more aware of our emotions, more

Michael T. Brown:

in tune with our emotions. Why do I feel this way? Where are

Michael T. Brown:

these thoughts or feelings coming from, you know, to manage

Michael T. Brown:

our emotions, and to ultimately channel them into the right

Michael T. Brown:

direction. I like how one of my friends and mentors says is

Michael T. Brown:

the statement really kind of blew me away when he said,

Michael T. Brown:

he's a resilience trainer. And he said, you know, we can use

Michael T. Brown:

our pain and our problems as our best friend. And I used to,

Michael T. Brown:

when I first heard that it kind of took me aback like, why would

Michael T. Brown:

we use right? Our pain is our best friend. But I think I understand

Michael T. Brown:

what he was getting at that. Obviously, we're not signing up

Michael T. Brown:

for pain or suffering. But if we can manage it, if we can

Michael T. Brown:

navigate it, it can ultimately help us it can propel us into our

Michael T. Brown:

destiny, it will channel the emotion into a positive direction.

Michael T. Brown:

You know, Dr. Brad, I like using sports metaphors a lot.

Michael T. Brown:

And I think there's many ways you know, sports as a

Michael T. Brown:

metaphor for life, you think about certain athletes, right?

Michael T. Brown:

Some of them play with a chip on their shoulder, maybe

Michael T. Brown:

they've been slighted. overlooked, you know, told they

Michael T. Brown:

weren't going to make it. And instead of imploding or

Michael T. Brown:

self destructing, they use that emotion as fuel. And I

Michael T. Brown:

believe somebody's mate who's lifting us today needs

Michael T. Brown:

to hear that right? The pain you're going through, the

Michael T. Brown:

challenges, the adversity that you're facing, if managed

Michael T. Brown:

the right way, if navigated the right way, can ultimately

Michael T. Brown:

help push you into your destiny, in that third part to behavior.

Michael T. Brown:

So we got thoughts, feelings, behavior, and that's the end of

Michael T. Brown:

the day, we got to make better choice. So what we do is in all

Michael T. Brown:

three areas, improve our thinking, less toxic thoughts, more

Michael T. Brown:

healthy thoughts. And we know we can change the way we

Michael T. Brown:

think. Scripture puts it this way, right, you know, whatsoever

Michael T. Brown:

a man or woman thinks so as he or she. So we improve our

Michael T. Brown:

thoughts, manage our emotions, make good choices.

Michael T. Brown:

And when we combine those, they're going to help us reach our goal.

Dr. Brad Miller:

Well, that's awesome. I loved this is kind of really what the

Dr. Brad Miller:

purpose of what we are talking about the the Beyond Adversity

Dr. Brad Miller:

podcast was really all about, it's kind of this university of adversity,

Dr. Brad Miller:

if you will, or some people call it, the adversity advantage, that

Dr. Brad Miller:

you adversity is going to happen. That is a given. That is a given

Dr. Brad Miller:

that bad stuff is going to happen to us. Bad stuff is going to

Dr. Brad Miller:

happen to us, it might be a health issue, you might be losing

Dr. Brad Miller:

our job, it might be family, marriage, divorce, any number of

Dr. Brad Miller:

things that can happen to all you know, we sure you know,

Dr. Brad Miller:

we got a war going on Ukraine right now, bad stuff is happening

Dr. Brad Miller:

in the world. And it can happen to us. And it does, it will happen

Dr. Brad Miller:

to us. But how we handle it makes all the difference in source so

Dr. Brad Miller:

many people, they get devastated. I call it being in the ditch,

Dr. Brad Miller:

they get the ditch and they can't get out. You know, in order

Dr. Brad Miller:

to get out, you really got to struggle to get out. But if we

Dr. Brad Miller:

can take this as advantage, and then use it to our advantage

Dr. Brad Miller:

and come through. I've talked to lots of folks and maybe you

Dr. Brad Miller:

have to who say you have didn't leverage that bad point.

Dr. Brad Miller:

You mentioned sports, for instance. But I know other people

Dr. Brad Miller:

who say getting fired from my job was the best thing ever

Dr. Brad Miller:

happened to me because it forced me to start a new business.

Dr. Brad Miller:

I've talked to many people who said, Okay, it's stupid, but

Dr. Brad Miller:

I'm having a heart attack was the best thing ever happened

Dr. Brad Miller:

to me because it made me change my health patterns.

Michael T. Brown:

That's right.

Dr. Brad Miller:

Getting divorce was a good thing for me. Because my next

Dr. Brad Miller:

marriage became better because I learned better how to

Dr. Brad Miller:

relate to people. In sports, there's plenty of story that comes

Dr. Brad Miller:

to mind right now. And your name being micromanaged by

Dr. Brad Miller:

Michael Jordan, where he talked all through his career about

Dr. Brad Miller:

how you got cut from the middle school team High School, a

Dr. Brad Miller:

high school team or whatever it was, he got cut from the

Dr. Brad Miller:

freshman year to whatever it was, and he had leverage that

Dr. Brad Miller:

his whole career, the anger about that towards his incredible

Dr. Brad Miller:

success. That's right. So give us if you you've mentioned this,

Dr. Brad Miller:

you know, the cognitive piece here that I'm the kind of verbal

Dr. Brad Miller:

therapy, but give us a few examples here about maybe people

Dr. Brad Miller:

you've worked with or situations where people have actually

Dr. Brad Miller:

applied it. I'd like to be as specific as possible. You can maybe

Dr. Brad Miller:

some people you've worked with about how well, it's about

Dr. Brad Miller:

applied or maybe in your own life.

Michael T. Brown:

Yeah, something really comes to mind. And I think, you know,

Michael T. Brown:

I think about you know, doing some couples counseling. And,

Michael T. Brown:

you know, a few couples come to mind that I have my five stages

Michael T. Brown:

of recovery that I noticed that help individuals work through pain

Michael T. Brown:

or trauma just over the years I've have come up with these dates

Michael T. Brown:

is that you know, help us navigate difficult and I'll walk through

Michael T. Brown:

them real quickly. The first phase is the awareness phase, the

Michael T. Brown:

second phase is coming to terms. Third is forgiveness. The

Michael T. Brown:

next phase is healing and then moving forward. Awareness

Michael T. Brown:

is the what happened to me phase right gather all the facts

Michael T. Brown:

run brutal, honest, brutally honest about what happened.

Michael T. Brown:

Whether it was you know, right, an individual is going

Michael T. Brown:

through a divorce, bankruptcy, health issue, grief loss,

Michael T. Brown:

whatever it is a setback. abuse, trauma, whatever the pain

Michael T. Brown:

is that we wrap our try to try our best to get as much facts

Michael T. Brown:

and information as we can out and deal with it in confronted,

Michael T. Brown:

even lament some minute, then move to the next phase that

Michael T. Brown:

can I make peace with it? I call it the wrestling phase coming

Michael T. Brown:

to terms. So think about? I'm thinking about a couple right now.

Michael T. Brown:

You know, who's who, who. Not everybody gets divorced

Michael T. Brown:

because they wanted it? Right? Somebody may have left.

Michael T. Brown:

And with that being the case, right? To say, Okay, this is my

Michael T. Brown:

reality now. Is it's not a good thing, but can I use it for good?

Michael T. Brown:

Can I make peace with it? Can I come to terms with it? It

Michael T. Brown:

happened? And I'm gonna face that monster down. Straight

Michael T. Brown:

up, right? It happened. If we can, if we can make peace with

Michael T. Brown:

it might not ever be okay, right? I might not ever be cool with

Michael T. Brown:

it. But I need to hopefully make some peace with it. It has the

Michael T. Brown:

abuse the trauma, now can I forgive? And that's the elephant

Michael T. Brown:

in the room. The choice to forgive but because I've heard it put

Michael T. Brown:

this way and Dr. Brady probably to this right, you know, the

Michael T. Brown:

price of unforgiveness can be too heavy.

Dr. Brad Miller:

The way I like to put this particular situation here, Michael is

Dr. Brad Miller:

you choose whether to get to stay bitter or to get better, it's

Dr. Brad Miller:

good. And I just tried to put it in that kind of, you know, a

Dr. Brad Miller:

dichotomy. They're better or better, which way you're going to go,

Michael T. Brown:

which is a choice,

Dr. Brad Miller:

which is a choice.

Michael T. Brown:

We can choose in those situations am i

Dr. Brad Miller:

Many people want and choose, you know, call it the kind of the

Dr. Brad Miller:

malaise or maybe mediocrity where you choose to stay stuck.

Dr. Brad Miller:

You know, you want to be in that misery in a way you choose to

Dr. Brad Miller:

be there instead of taking the difficulties of getting out of the

Dr. Brad Miller:

miserable situation to have freedom and success and delight

Dr. Brad Miller:

and all that good stuff.

Michael T. Brown:

That's key that you say freedom. You know, Scripture says that

Michael T. Brown:

right? And you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Michael T. Brown:

You can't be free, it's harder to be free until you at least know the

Michael T. Brown:

truth, even a painful truth. And if we'll if

Dr. Brad Miller:

we'll free the freedom, the freedom comes from forgiveness,

Dr. Brad Miller:

accepting that we are forgiven people and then also turn that

Dr. Brad Miller:

around, and forgiving others including people who have hurt us

Dr. Brad Miller:

and cleaning people who still have bad intentions toward us. And

Dr. Brad Miller:

may the ongoing you know maybe an ongoing situation, and you

Dr. Brad Miller:

still forgive them. That doesn't mean you could become a patsy

Dr. Brad Miller:

and get walked over you could still choose to have you know, a

Dr. Brad Miller:

take a different pathway you can still choose to extract yourself

Dr. Brad Miller:

from bad influences, you know, difficult people and situations.

Dr. Brad Miller:

And I think there are people who need to do that I'm certainly

Dr. Brad Miller:

not a believer, that people need to forgive and then stay in

Dr. Brad Miller:

healthy or our relationships or anything else that spirals to

Dr. Brad Miller:

oblivion. You need to get better, get better means you need

Dr. Brad Miller:

to do whatever you

Michael T. Brown:

and sometimes we need help. In order to get better. Sometimes

Michael T. Brown:

the pain may be too hard. We might not know how to forgive,

Michael T. Brown:

we may have to ask God help me to forgive. Because forgiveness.

Michael T. Brown:

Let's say unforgiveness like it's like drinking poison and expecting

Michael T. Brown:

the other person that died on forgiveness corrodes the container

Michael T. Brown:

that carries it and every day we get to choose, you know, can I

Michael T. Brown:

forgive? Well, you might say why don't feel like forgiving. It's and

Michael T. Brown:

that's where the choice comes in to say, You know what, and

Michael T. Brown:

here's the principle, right? Do the right thing. Let the emotions

Michael T. Brown:

catch up later, as one of my clients put it in, I like as he said, she

Michael T. Brown:

said, you know, do the right thing and the heart will follow. And if

Michael T. Brown:

we'll forgive, then I believe healing can come and as we heal,

Michael T. Brown:

we can move forward into our destiny. Now we may flow in and

Michael T. Brown:

out of those five phases where you may say, Well, you know, I

Michael T. Brown:

thought I healed but then some more stuff came out you

Michael T. Brown:

retriggered me, right, you know, and we know forgiveness

Michael T. Brown:

does not always mean reconciliation, but it could mean I got clarity.

Dr. Brad Miller:

Sure.

Michael T. Brown:

and I can make choices but make better choices moving forward.

Dr. Brad Miller:

Just because you heal doesn't mean you're not gonna get

Dr. Brad Miller:

hurt again. That's right. And sometimes you can be hurt by

Dr. Brad Miller:

the same people the same situations again, you just got to

Dr. Brad Miller:

heal again, you got to keep going.

Michael T. Brown:

You may have to remove yourself or distance yourself from

Michael T. Brown:

that person, like my dad has always said, he said, Son, sometimes

Michael T. Brown:

you gotta love people with a long handled spoon. I love you,

Michael T. Brown:

but I need some distance from it.

Dr. Brad Miller:

Yeah. I love it. I might have to use that as a metaphor there.

Dr. Brad Miller:

Yeah, there you go. Well, if you've been here, one thing, I really

Dr. Brad Miller:

want to come around to you. What's kind of one more thought

Dr. Brad Miller:

here. One more approach here. You mentioned how we need

Dr. Brad Miller:

others to help us sometimes Yes. And you seems to me like

Dr. Brad Miller:

you've chosen to be one of those people. What I mean by

Dr. Brad Miller:

that is, I think another part of a person who has has navigated

Dr. Brad Miller:

adversity is they then choose to love others regardless. But also

Dr. Brad Miller:

choose to serve out of love is one of the elements of my

Dr. Brad Miller:

teaching idea. You, you have to intentionally serve and it

Dr. Brad Miller:

has to be out of a you know, something altruistic, it has to

Dr. Brad Miller:

be out of love for others, that tells me about somebody,

Dr. Brad Miller:

you may have served a person or a student or something.

Dr. Brad Miller:

I'm looking to looking for testimony here, Michael. Is

Dr. Brad Miller:

someone in your life who you've served, and you've seen,

Dr. Brad Miller:

okay, there's an aha moment, there's a transformation there

Dr. Brad Miller:

that's gone.

Michael T. Brown:

I think of a gentleman I'm working with here recently who I've

Michael T. Brown:

had the opportunity to help him navigate a difficult divorce.

Michael T. Brown:

But now he's thriving and flourishing. And I'm meeting with

Michael T. Brown:

him and his significant other, helping them to prepare

Michael T. Brown:

for marriage, to see that spectrum of the pain and

Michael T. Brown:

disappointment and anger, and some trauma that we

Michael T. Brown:

helped him work through to now be in a position to see

Michael T. Brown:

him thrive and flourish. And, you know, is is it's powerful,

Michael T. Brown:

and it's impactful. And but that that young man made a

Michael T. Brown:

decision, he made a decision, to not give up on love and

Michael T. Brown:

not give up on himself. Just because a person hurts us

Michael T. Brown:

does not mean that everyone's going to hurt in that

Michael T. Brown:

optimism, I call it real realistic optimism. And I can't say

Michael T. Brown:

I came up with that term, that term came from a book.

Michael T. Brown:

Maybe before then, where I heard it was from a book

Michael T. Brown:

called Better Under Pressure. And it's a book about, you

Michael T. Brown:

know, a gentleman who went out. He interviewed folks,

Michael T. Brown:

you know, in big companies, and they decided what made

Michael T. Brown:

great leaders, right, so as a study on leadership, in many

Michael T. Brown:

ways, these big fortune 500 companies, what are some of

Michael T. Brown:

the principles that helped them be great leaders and one

Michael T. Brown:

of the principles was realistic optimism. Okay, optimism, right?

Michael T. Brown:

I need to see the glass half full. But I see it for what it is realism.

Michael T. Brown:

Right, you know, where does a good healthy balance there

Michael T. Brown:

where we should be happy warriors, I call it right to have that

Michael T. Brown:

happy warrior mentality that we're going to have to fight.

Michael T. Brown:

So there's gonna be some challenges. But let's do it with a

Michael T. Brown:

smile. Let's do off grace. As one of my mentors, one of my

Michael T. Brown:

friends said, he said, you know, he said, Mike, always remember

Michael T. Brown:

this, the greats are gracious. And we write that to think about

Michael T. Brown:

service. And you I think, you hit it on the head brand, right, that

Michael T. Brown:

service through love. That's a great definition for leadership in my book.

Dr. Brad Miller:

It is what you're describing there as maybe you've heard the

Dr. Brad Miller:

term the Stockdale paradox. It comes from the writing good

Dr. Brad Miller:

to great. Author Collins talks about the Stockdale paradox

Dr. Brad Miller:

basically from Vietnam era, Vietnam era of prisoners of war,

Dr. Brad Miller:

and people had to have in order to those who survived

Dr. Brad Miller:

North Vietnam on Vietnamese prison experience, were ones

Dr. Brad Miller:

who face the brutal facts and still move forward with faith.

Dr. Brad Miller:

And you can't be a pie in the sky type of thing and you can't

Dr. Brad Miller:

be also just give up. You got to, you know, face your reality

Dr. Brad Miller:

and hope and have have hope and that Viktor Frankl talked

Michael T. Brown:

a lot about that right in his book Man's Search for Meaning.

Michael T. Brown:

Holocaust survivor. Yeah,

Dr. Brad Miller:

absolutely. And very important, very good stuff. You're a man.

Dr. Brad Miller:

But you've got a couple books out there. You've got a website

Dr. Brad Miller:

with lots of resources. If you've got some great stuff here, you've

Dr. Brad Miller:

shared some great great insights here today. Michael, how can

Dr. Brad Miller:

people be in connection with you if they want to know more

Dr. Brad Miller:

about what you're about and how maybe you might be helpful

Dr. Brad Miller:

in their life? Yes, sir.

Michael T. Brown:

They can go right to my website, brownsleadership.com.

Michael T. Brown:

They can see what we're doing. Reach out, got my book

Michael T. Brown:

information out there if anybody's interested in Yeah,

Michael T. Brown:

love to hear from folks and connect I do workshops and

Michael T. Brown:

trainings and and therapy here in this local DMV and all

Michael T. Brown:

of its in DC, Virginia area and across the country so yeah,

Michael T. Brown:

look forward to hearing from brownsleadership.com

Dr. Brad Miller:

brownsleadership.com Well, you've been a fascinating guest

Dr. Brad Miller:

here today on Beyond Adversity, and his website is brownsleadership.com.

Dr. Brad Miller:

We'll put connections to all the things that he's all about at our website,

Dr. Brad Miller:

drbradmiller.com. And we thank you yesterday on the Beyond Adversity

Dr. Brad Miller:

podcast with Dr. Brad Miller. Our guest today Michael T. Brown.

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