Bringing Meditation Alive In Our Lives with Neil McKinlay

Neil is a meditation teacher and mentor, a survivor, and a recovered. He’s bringing meditation alive in our lives with Embodied Meditation.

In this episode, Neil shared his struggle with the dissonance between what was going on and what he thought was going on.

He talks about the point of his drama and trauma experience and a situation in which he found he had to leave. 

Instead of becoming trapped, falling, engaging in substance abuse, or other destructive activities like a lot of people do, Neil chose to embrace his depressed state in a way to understand it while still actively healing himself.

Through the practice of meditation and community, Neil discovered a relationship with this inner knowing that was more visible, suited to his life and circumstances, and trustworthy.

Neil McKinlay talks to Dr. Brad about the way he lives his life— through practices, habits, spiritual practices, or anything else—different or subtler than how he did it in the past, but aids in healing and encourages greater productivity, calm, and a sense of meaning in his life. 

Neil McKinlay’s story is an inspiring, spiritual, and transformative testimony of someone who has navigated difficult circumstances and emerged to a life of peace, prosperity, and meaning.

Episode 229 of The Beyond Adversity Podcast is a must-listen for people who are having some sort of drama trauma in their life and trying to figure out some way to navigate through that to come to a better place.

“The Beyond Adversity Podcast with Dr. Brad Miller is published weekly with the mission of helping people “Grow Through What They Go Through” as they navigate adversity and discover their promised life of peace, prosperity, and purpose. 

https://neilmckinlay.com/ 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bringing-meditation-to-life-with-neil-mckinlay/id1568831090 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/NeilMcKinlayMeditation/

Transcript
Brad Miller:

Our special guest today on beyond adversity is Neil McKinley. He is a meditation

Brad Miller:

teacher and mentor, a survivor and recovery. And he's all about bringing meditation

Brad Miller:

alive in our lives with what he calls embodied meditation. Neil, welcome to Beyond

diversity.

Neil McKinlay:

Yeah. Thanks very much, Brad. It's wonderful to be here.

Brad Miller:

Awesome, awesome. Thank you for being our guest today. We love to hear great

Brad Miller:

stories of people who have had some challenges in their life and have overcome them

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and then have something to teach others. And I know that's a part of your story. In

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particular, you've had some trauma and some drama in your life and some personal

Brad Miller:

crises. And let's just kind of start there, wherever you'd like to start in terms of your

Brad Miller:

story, and how some of the experiences you've had have kind of led you to what you're doing today.

Neil McKinlay:

Yeah, well, as you mentioned, I'm a meditation teacher and meditation mentor, which

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means I'm also a student of this work. I'm a student of meditation. And I learned to

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meditate a very long time ago when I was a teenager and a competitive swimmer. And

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then, probably about 30 years ago, I started to give my study and practice a bit of formal

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shape working in a couple of successive communities that were rooted in Tibetan

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Buddhism, which offered opportunities to engage in a formal curriculum, long retreats,

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and so forth. And about 2016, my relationship with the second community started to

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encounter some turbulence. I started to feel uncomfortable with the way that the leader

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was treating close student students. And by 2018, this discomfort had intensified,

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considerably wanted a pair, it became apparent that in spite of what I believed, and in

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spite of what I've been told, and in spite of what I told others, as a leader in this

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community, that what was driving the situation was really not the teachings and the

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practice, it was really not the well-being and the development of students but really the

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self-centered impulses of the leader. And the extent that he was willing to go to assert

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these had created what I consider a toxic environment and an environment characterized

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by manipulation, by disempowerment, by the disrespect that bordered, I think, on

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contempt.

Brad Miller:

So all through some sort of an equal or some sort of abuse involved in our psychological

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psychological spiritual abuse. Yes. I would say that that's a fair characterization. And so

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all through 2019, I struggled with this. I struggled with the dissonance between what

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was going on or what I thought was going on. And what I now saw happening right

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before my eyes, I struggled with the depression and anxiety that arose from having my

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own inner intelligence continued inner intelligence continually distorted and

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undermined. And at a certain point, my mental and physical state became so

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compromised that I had to leave. And that's what I did in 2020. That was kind of the first

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step to my journey of recovery. And my first step to the path of purpose that I now have

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was February 2020, I left that community in that relationship.

Brad Miller:

Interesting. And then you left this community, which I assume you had some, at least at

Brad Miller:

one time, and others some sense of security and comfort, and then you left it. And

Brad Miller:

whenever you leave something, it's a time of chaos and disjointedness. And just

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coincidentally, if I'm remembering my timeline correctly, February of 2020, is when the

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whole world went through a time of disconnect with the COVID crisis and so on the

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whole world was just combined, lighted state. And so you had this going on, personally,

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as well as the impact on everything else out. So the question is, you set yourself like

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you're in this community. I want to get to a couple of points of clarification here at noon,

Brad Miller:

when you say you're in this community, was this a closed community? Were you living

Brad Miller:

someplace or this just kind of the studies of a teacher type of thing or

Neil McKinlay:

To give you the context here a little bit, it was a Buddhist meditation community that

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offers programs both in person typically in Colorado and online, where people had an

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opportunity to receive the teachings that were being offered in that context.

Brad Miller:

You were not living in some sort of a situation

Neil McKinlay:

No, it was a more in-and-out situation if you know what I mean. You'd step into

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something and then you'd come back to your life and then you'd step into something

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and come back to

Brad Miller:

go away for rather and I heard you say retreats, you might have gone for I'd like a

Brad Miller:

weekend or a week-long retreat, this type of thing.

Neil McKinlay:

Yeah. And the main one I did every year was a month long.

Brad Miller:

A month long. Okay. So it extended times. So you broke out of that, you could use your

Brad Miller:

language you left or extracted yourself from that was a dramatic, traumatic experience,

Brad Miller:

and you felt at least some level of abuse, at least psychologically. And certainly, you

Brad Miller:

were uncomfortable with what you were seeing happening there to others as well. Let's

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talk a little bit at the end. So that was your point of drama and trauma and a situation

Brad Miller:

that you found like you had to leave? What were some of the actions that you took? And

Brad Miller:

what were some of the emotions you went through then Neil, to break out of that, what were some things you did?

Neil McKinlay:

The first thing is the transition point we just hit is leaving, that was huge, of course. And

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then the second thing was meditating. And you know, that, given my background, that

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may seem obvious, but it really shocked me, I was so lost and so depressed, I spent a

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lot of time just staring out the window, I spent a lot of time just aimlessly wandering

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around our neighbourhood. And I think it would have been a perfect time for me to step

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away from the practice of meditation say, Yeah, I've had enough of this. But what

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actually happened is I started to turn towards it. And it became something that I did,

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more or less every day, and continued to do more or less every day. And there were

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some interesting things that happened is I started to settle into the lostness and

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depression that I was feeling, not changing, not getting rid of, but settling into this

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experience, and becoming more familiar with this experience, which traditionally is

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known as the first stage of meditation, where you settle into the traditional term

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shamatha. But it was shocking how vivid it was, I wasn't turning towards my breath,

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settling into my breath, settling into peace or relaxation, I was settling into how lost I

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was. And the second thing that happened as I was meditating was that there was this

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experience of insight that often spoke directly to what was happening to me in that

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lostness. Again, traditionally, this is the second phase of meditation, but it was so

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shocking, that it was so specific, and that it suggested to me that there might be a third

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phase of meditation, where we let the revelation that comes out of our settling guide us

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into our lives. And because I didn't know what else to do, that's what I started to do. If

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what came up was that I was tired, I would rest that I was lonely, I would reach out that I

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needed some trauma therapy, I would get trauma therapy. So leaving was the big one,

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the first one meditating was the second one. And the third, second thing. The third thing

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that was really effective in terms of what did I do, was community. Shortly after the end

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of the meditative relationship, as you know, COVID struck, which meant 75% of my

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livelihood left, by leaving that former community, the remainder vanished with COVID.

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And I started to offer something online, which evolved into this community called the

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online gatherings. And it's a group of meditators that support and inspire one another as

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we get an everyday sense of what meditation is, and do what I just mentioned, let the

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revelation that arises, guides us through our lives. And under the influence of these two

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meditation in community, I actually found myself moving through what I'd been through,

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not getting over, but moving through and healing my relationship with my own inner

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knowing, recovering some trust and confidence that had been so deeply undermined,

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and finding a sense of direction and purpose I hadn't had before.

Brad Miller:

So if I'm understanding you correctly here, Neil, your original search, you went into this

Brad Miller:

former community here that you were in, and you were searching for meaningfulness in

Brad Miller:

that aspect, but that disappointed you and let you down and then when you got out of

Brad Miller:

that you if I understand you correctly, you chose to kind of face your brutal facts, the

Brad Miller:

brutal reality that you are in. And I think that sometimes that's part of the first part of

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healing comes to an aha moment, okay. And I'm in this mess if you have to deal with it

Brad Miller:

now, but then you chose not to, you have built you chose to kind of embrace your

Brad Miller:

depressed state in a way to understand it, but to be actively healing yourself rather than,

Brad Miller:

a lot of folks get stuck, or they can go into some sort of a downward spiral or they get

Brad Miller:

into some substance abuse or other destructive behavior and you chose otherwise and

Brad Miller:

I'm interested in for just a minute you know, I love He said about being the physical act

Brad Miller:

of leaving is huge. Because I think the teaching I do, action is a huge part, you got to

Brad Miller:

take a physical act, you've got to get off your rear and do something about it. And then

Brad Miller:

you have to take the other mental and spiritual and inner life actions as well. So let's go

Brad Miller:

there for a minute. You obviously are a very introspective, deep person meditation.

Brad Miller:

But tell us a little bit about that spiritual element of going to some different or, in your

Brad Miller:

case, maybe a deeper connection to something different than what you had before. I'm

Brad Miller:

going to how did you connect with a power greater than self to help you to heal and

Brad Miller:

move past you have prior experience? And you just go a little further with adequate?

Neil McKinlay:

Yeah, yeah. And I think it was, in my previous situation, and this is one of the things that

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led me to leave in my previous situation, that previous community, that previous

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leadership relationship, at the end, it became apparent that at the end of the day, the

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ultimate authority in that situation was one person and one person only. One person had

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ultimate wisdom. That was it. And what has that

Brad Miller:

That was the leader of this group, this never survivor of the will, yeah. Okay. All right.

Neil McKinlay:

And again and again, I saw people who had been working with him, and it's interesting, I

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needed to see it happen to others to begin to see it was happening to me. But again,

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and again, I would see the leader, undermine the intelligence of the people who had

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worked with him the longest been most devoted to him and the practices by usurping,

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their own intelligence undermining their own intelligence. And so what happened, what's

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happened to the last couple of years for me is I've begun to connect with that

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intelligence, the integrity of that intelligence, in my own experience, and I'm really open

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to whatever we want to call it. In the Buddhist tradition, you'd call it Buddha's Buddha

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nature, or basic nature. Sometimes it just simply feels like Grace to me or mystery to

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me. But through the work with meditation and community, I found my relationship with

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this inner knowing, coming more to the fore and showing itself to be appropriate to my

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life, situation, and trustworthy. And those all sound like big words. But as I said, a few

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minutes ago, it was so ordinary, I'm really tired, I need to rest, I'm stuck. I need some

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trauma therapy. That was the kind of guidance that was coming my way. And in one way

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of understanding the last couple of years is deep, developing a stronger relationship

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with that were, at least in the Final Four years of my situation, or my relationship in this

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other situation, it was undermined again and again and again. And again.

Brad Miller:

Yeah. It's interesting what you're talking about here, Neil, and in my life as a pastor of

Brad Miller:

the Christian church, I've encountered folks who have all kinds of spiritual journeys that

Brad Miller:

they've been on and things like that. And I've studied different ways people have

Brad Miller:

encountered that and related to spiritual bodies, for lack of a better word. And there's

Brad Miller:

what you've described and described a group or a body where the leader becomes the

Brad Miller:

focus of the group. It's not a healthy thing. And what many of us call that, don't you?

Neil McKinlay:

I do know what many of us call that. And there are three words that I've spent two years

Neil McKinlay:

struggling with coming to terms with the term discerning if they are appropriate you've

Neil McKinlay:

touched on one spiritual abuse. Yes. I believe you're touching on the second, which is cult.

Brad Miller:

What you described is kind of a classic definition in the way of what I've studied.

Brad Miller:

Obviously, you've thought about that term, and about that experience, and how you see

Brad Miller:

it now. So go with what you're thinking there. I'm interested in how you would describe

Brad Miller:

that experience and how you're looking at it now that you've had the perspective of some time and distance?

Neil McKinlay:

Well, I mentioned that I did some trauma therapy and the trauma therapy that I kept

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coming back, going back to was EMDR. I can't remember what the letters stand for. And

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the person I work with, basically, I sit there, and he's got a little thing that moves back and forth. And I let follow the little thing and just let the experience flow. So it's a way of working with the trauma of being stuck. So experience flows. We don't talk about much. We just let the experience flow. He was very familiar with what I'd been going through. And at one point, he stopped. And he never stopped the process. At one point, he stopped the process. And he looked at me, and he goes, Do you ever wonder if you were in a cult? And that's a big word to me. And so I said, Well, can you define what you mean by a cult? And he talked about inappropriate, coercive means of control to benefit one person at the detriment of others. And I'm like, yeah, that fits. And it was like a light bulb going on. And it's still a big scary word for me. But there was a certain amount of relaxation because it was like, Yes, this is what I was involved with. I was involved in a cult. And when I think cult, I think, to be honest, I think of Kool-Aid and human branding, and worrying about aliens coming to take us away. And one of the things I've learned is that the way cults manifest is as different as every one of us as individuals. And so I didn't have any of those experiences. But yeah, I was in a situation where inappropriate power structures that tended to again and again, especially at the end, especially with the senior people, benefit one person and one person only.

Brad Miller:

Well, it's almost always in some form, you are coerced in some way, and you don't even realize you're being brought into that unhealthy relationship. And one can use this turnip terminology, not only in two groups, such as what you were involved with, or, Unification Church, or Eric Christians, or whatever Christian groups could be considered that political groups can be sort of caught but almost always brought into some sense of affirmation. And then it comes to the Deity, as it were, becoming a person or some group like that. And to get out of that, you must have some physical removal, and then you must take some time to heal. And some people call it deprogramming and things like that. It's always going to be painful. And so what I want to go with you now about this, Neil, is, what are you doing now? And what I'm going to with us is how you live your life now in terms of practices, or habits, or spiritual habits, or anything else that you're doing in your life now, your meditation practices and things like this, that you have now, that may be different or nuanced from what you had before, but helps you heal and gain more peace or productivity or a sense of purpose in your life.

Neil McKinlay:

There's a number, and of course, we've touched on some of them trauma therapy remains, and an EMDR remains a significant part of my life. It's something that I turn back to, again and again, when I feel stuck, and go back to the same individual that I mentioned a few moments ago, and I do some sessions, I mentioned meditation. And my approach to meditation has altered a lot in that. It used to be very instructional, meaning, unsurprisingly, the leader would say, Do this, do this, do this, do this, do this in your meditation. And it's now become that instructional model, which I think some value remains part of my repertoire.

Neil McKinlay:

But I'm also trusting more the immediate wakefulness of my life that I can just simply relax and be present, and trust that. And so that's meditation is showing up differently. The other thing that's I mentioned community that's been huge this community that I'm part of, I work with, I host. And the other thing that's been hugely affecting me is beginning to speak to my experience. I did for a couple of you for about a year and a half, two years, I offered updates to people on my email list who knew about the situation because there are lots of people who have left this community. And so I would just offer personal updates about what's going on for me and how I'm working with it. And now I'm speaking more broadly to people like yourself and your audience here on this podcast, saying, This is what I went through. This is how I'm recovering. This is what it looks like now. And that's hugely affecting every one of these interviews. It's hugely affecting me on that.

Brad Miller:

Well, our audience is certainly geared towards people with some sort of drama trauma in their life and trying to figure out some way to navigate through that to come to a better place or place. We like to call it a place of peace and prosperity and purpose, and so a part of your journey, Neil as of now, you have this urge to share your story and to share ways that you could be a part of the process of healing others and serving others. And I take the part of that is your emotional bond. You mentioned your community, and your new community has been an emotional and spiritual part of your life. And that's a good thing. Some members of your new community have a similar pathway as your former community may be members of your former community. And you've developed, and you have professional help, you have your therapist, and so on, and you're interacting with. So that's a part of your healing process.

And I'm a big believer, and I think Google put out a thing a while back about the most search terms they have for Google, the actual search engine, most search terms and when the top searched term recently was, how can I heal? So the yearning and the yearning are there for healing? And you mentioned a few words that are important to that you've mentioned trust. You mentioned grace. And you've mentioned community is all parts of that. So tell us now about what is motivating you now to reach out through podcasts and other things like this. I know you have several items around coaching and serving others at Neilmckinley.com. What's motivating you to serve other people now? Or what's that all about? And how is that manifesting itself?

Neil McKinlay:

What's motivating me? I brought a book with me, expecting this question to come up. And it's a book entitled Acedia & me by Kathleen Norris, one of my favourite writers. And these are just a few sentences toward the end of this book. And she writes if we are made in God's image, perhaps we are also words of God in this sense. And our life's pilgrimage is to determine our particular word and how we are to bring it to fruition. Within this frame of reference, we can envision our life as a journey home. And for me, all of those words, every one of them rings true. And I feel like that word waits within all of us. And that meditation can play a role in developing a deeper relationship with this. And that it can be very helpful to have a community of others alongside us as we develop this relationship. And, I look around the world of which we are part, and now is as good a time as any for us human beings to deepen our work in this regard. Meditate from a meditation point of view, we might talk not talk about the Word of God, we might talk about basic nature, Buddha Nature, which I mentioned earlier, but to me, it's the same thing. There's something within us as human beings. Meditation and the support of like-minded others can help us deepen the relationship with this and then bring it out into the world bringing meditation to life is how I often put what I'm doing, educating, encouraging, and empowering people so that we can bring meditation to bring the revelation of our lives into the greater world.

Brad Miller:

Let's get practical and pragmatic for a second utterance of how this can be helpful to other people. And what I mean by that is you've had your experience of moving from a place of trauma and drama, and that's a bad place, to a much better place. And now you're working with people through coaching and through your classes that you teach and so on. Tell us about a person or situation that kind of a testimonial about a person who you worked with, who may have been in kind of a bad place, and now is in a better place, because they've worked with you tell us a story there about that?

Neil McKinlay:

I can think of a couple of examples and lean towards simplicity. These are very simple, relatable examples. And I'm thinking of someone who when we started these online gatherings I mentioned when we started this a couple of years ago. They were very reluctant to share their experience, let their experience come into the group and be a source have insight, inspiration and encouragement for all of us, just that human sharing. And, over the last couple of years, I've seen them become much, much more willing in that regard. And I've seen others be affected by that willingness. Their life is changed by our work together, and that first change other lives. And that, to me, is overwhelming. Sometimes we meet three times a week on Zoom. And sometimes, after we meet, I have to take a moment to settle, relax, and acknowledge what's happened. Because that kind of transformation, it's not a huge transformation, it doesn't seem like the world has suddenly turned upside down. But that everyday ordinary human transformation that I just spoke to is the building block of the bigger changes possible for us. It's assurance.

Brad Miller:

Meaningful and gratifying to you and the people involved. And I just have a working theory that I have in my life in the work that I do that people suffer from the disease of meaninglessness in their lives and are searching depths desperately for meaning fullness in their life. And every little part, every little step, helps in any affirmation that can help us. So you've shared with our audience here today, and you know, McKinley, some great information about your personal experience. And a big thank you for sharing some sensitive stuff here about your life and about the process that you went through, and what you offer to other people. So if people do want to seek you out and connect with you, we'll put some things in our show notes at Dr.Bradmiller.com. But tell us how people can connect to you if they want to learn more about you?

Neil McKinlay:

You can find me in all the usual places, Facebook, Instagram, insight, and so forth. But the best way is my website, which is neilmckinlay.com. And I'm a rare McKinlay that ends L A Y. Because the work I do this notion of bringing meditation to life helping us bring the revelation that arises out of our quiet time into the world of whichever part is a broad mandate. What I offer is pretty wide-ranging, including the subscription-based online gatherings I've mentioned. So the best way to go to where that broad offering is housed home is my website neilmckinlay.com. Check it out. If you're so inspired, sign on to the newsletter, which comes every month and gives you a gradual sense of what's being offered, the possibilities for access to teachings, and special offers. And when it shows up, it's a reminder, and people have said this to me a lot, your email shows up. And I may not open it, but it reminds me of meditation. And that is a reminder that meditation may have something to offer our lives and it's there waiting for us.

Brad Miller:

It's a great tool to use, and you embodied meditation. So we thank you for what you've shared here today. Again, you find neilmckinlay.com. And we will put connections to his website at DrBradmiller.com. Our guest today Neil McKinlay, thank you for being our guest beyond adversity.